Meet Anna Scott-Hinkle
Judy and Anna
Stories of the People of Sierra-Cascades
Judy Maurer
I'm so glad you agreed to do this. My rules are “You can say anything. If you don't like my questions, you can tell me. You can tell me whatever you want to tell me. You don't even have to answer the questions.”
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Well, I was thinking about how in the last few years, like since 2017, that my views about my faith and politics and how I think they intersect have changed.
Judy Maurer
Excellent! Excellent!
Anna Scott-Hinkle I've been thinking about that like at this point, I wouldn't say that I'm a complete pacifist. I say that, in my opinion, I think that violence should always be the last resort—“it should never be like, ‘oh, there's a problem, we should go beat somebody up.’ But I would also say that it shouldn't always be off the table. For example, I thought about if somebody's trying to kill me, or kill a family member, I don't think that we just, you know, standing there, asking them to please stop is gonna be an effective way to get them to stop. So I would like not to be a complete pacifist. I think that in the current world we live in, unfortunately, there are some times when that doesn't work to like, overthrow oppression. I don’t think I'm using the right terms.
I’ve thought about this a lot. And it was weird, because of that belief, I'm not being a Quaker in the way I'm supposed to be. I'm a bad Quaker. I've come to the belief that things don't make sense, and, at least in my mind, that's just the way it is. I can try to be as okay with that as possible. You can get really upset if things don't make sense, which isn't going to be helpful.
Judy Maurer Did you have a specific experience that changed your mind?
Anna Scott-Hinkle
For me, it was like, since 2016—these last six years—I've been thinking about things differently. Because of Trump being elected, and everything that has happened post that has challenged and eventually upended a lot of my viewpoints.
Also studying more US history and finding out about all the myths that we have—like learning about the doctrine of discovery. I was never taught about that. I remember when I was going to middle school, I was going to a public school at the time. I took an American history class. And we did talk about, like, US-Indian wars, whatever you wish—it's not what it should be called.
Anyway, so we studied that and I remember the textbook saying things like “this battle happened” at such and such a time, and this many people died. And I remember them calling it a “dispute”—There was a treaty and then the indigenous people did this and then the US responded by blah, blah, blah.
But I was never taught that the reason they were responding like that was because we had stolen their land—I mean, by we I mean the US—it's not like you and I stole their land. And I was never taught that. I found that to be confusing. I was like, Why would these wars be happening?
I feel that also, for me, one of the things that I value the most is honesty. So I understood that not only was the history I learned inaccurate, but politicians on both sides do not accurately talk about the country and the country's founding. I was like, okay, so I can't trust people in power to talk honestly? And I don't assume that they do or do not know, and I don't know what they were taught. But if they're not, you know, talking about accurate history and are actively ignoring it, then I'm like, I don't feel like I can trust these people.
So I guess also, especially the last however many years since Trump’s been in office, I guess it's something that has been difficult for me, which I think also changed my views of pacifism, also of protesting. I can see in some cases, protests might do something—at least they get people's attention that we’re upset about such-and-such, and that's good. But I feel like it's not effective, because the people in power don't really care. Because to me, it's not enough for them to say that they care, the fact that they're not doing anything, or not doing enough, at least in my opinion, on things like climate change, to me shows that they don't actually really care.
Judy Maurer
Was there any particular book that you read, or blog post or movie?
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Yes, I started reading it during the beginning of the pandemic and probably finished it like early this year, it's called How to Hide an Empire.
Judy Maurer
Oh, yes.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
It’s by Daniel Immerwahr. He's a history professor, I think. It's a US history book. But, it's from the point of view of the US being an empire and how that isn't something that most Americans know. So that was one thing that was very helpful, because, I mean, at the time I knew that the US was an empire, but it's put in a better perspective and context. I study a lot of history, but I study like a specific thing, sometimes it seems kind of scattered. So I like it when I read a book like that and it puts those things into context.
Judy Maurer
Yes. That's right.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
I’m also reading book called Unsettling Truths [by Mark Charles and Soong-Chan Rah]
Judy Maurer
Oh how interesting
Anna Scott-Hinkle
It's about the doctrine of discovery and how the US was founded on that and the horrible idea that non-white people are not human, and how that affected the indigenous people, when we, you know, committed genocide against them. Also it talks about it from the point of view of Christianity and how that has been perverted to save empire.
But again, this is part of an issue that I have with some kinds of Christianity. I feel like the message of Jesus has been greatly perverted to save empire and save, you know, the capitalist system. I`m pretty sure of that, based on what Jesus said about bringing freedom to captives and releasing the oppressed. I'm like, Well, if the system is oppressive and people are supporting it, then obviously, they're complicit.
Judy Maurer
Exactly
Anna Scott-Hinkle
We, every one of us, lives in the system, and we can’t completely escape—that's not possible. So, all of us whites are complicit on some level, whether you would choose to be or not. I’m not going to fault it, or blame and shame anyone for, you know, being complicit.
Unfortunately, many people are still not aware of this. And many people, when anybody tries to bring it up, they'll be defensive.
I do understand that because I remember when I faced that the US was an empire, I felt like my entire world view was collapsing. That is a scary thing. Everything that you've been taught your whole life! And I’m like what am I supposed to believe now? So I understand that anxiety and fear. Then also there's a question of after you do get it, well, what are you supposed to do next?
But when people just deny that this is true, it really annoys me. I get that there’s mourning and grief about being lied to your entire life about the basic facts about our country, but it utterly makes me mad when people will just, you know, ignore this thing. I don't know, I always try to extend grace and understand your view and to myself, because I'm genuinely pretty good at not judging other people. Of course, sometimes I do.
Judy Maurer
We all do.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Especially I like to be really judgmental against myself sometimes. I think only because obviously I know myself better than other people. And I'll be like, well, I should have done something about this because I did know such-and-such but I didn’t do it.
Judy Maurer
Yes, yes. (sighs) I loved in your poem. [Contradictions to Believe in] I mean, there's lots of things that I loved in the poem—but one of them was how you went back and forth.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Thank you.
Judy Maurer
And also there was something very unusual, especially in this country, about honoring the contradictions.
Anna Scott-Hinkle 13:10
Yes, yes. I feel like that's kind of the way that my mind works. I'm generally able to understand about four different viewpoints at the same time. So I may, like, completely disagree with what somebody says and think that it's wrong, but I can understand where they're coming from.
Judy Maurer
This is really important.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Thank you for saying that. Yeah, I think that we kind of lost that. I don't know if we ever had it but I don’t think we have it now. I feel like trying to figure out contradictions is kind of like a big part of my political beliefs as they currently are. It works extremely well for me. I feel like who I am by nature, you know, I want to figure things out, and analyze things like, is this true? Is [this other thing] true? I think it’s just kind of how I am also.
Judy Maurer
Yeah, it's terrific.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Thank you. Yeah, that's one of my poems that I love. I love all of my poems, but some of them I like even more
Judy Maurer
Talk to me about writing? Do you enjoy writing poems?
Anna Scott-Hinkle
I like writing poems, but the reason I write poems is because I feel like I have some kind of need in me. I need to write poems.
I have a bunch of ideas about things I write about in my head. At some point, it just gets too crowded. So when I sit down, I'm like, I have a poem in my head and it needs to go live in a Google doc.
For me, writing and especially writing poetry is a way to understand more what I'm thinking. Especially in the past, I'd write a poem, and I'd be writing and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I didn't realize I was so upset about this. I didn’t realize I thought this. It's kind of a way for me to test an idea out, even if I don't completely agree with it.
Judy Maurer
Oh, cool. So do you have a sense of the poem’s being, a sense that before you write it, it’s already alive?
Anna Scott-Hinkle
In a way I do. I'm also currently writing a novel, and probably have been writing it for close to 20 years. So it's been a while. Because as I get older, and more mature, my poetry and my writing has gotten more mature, which is good. Things vary.
I feel like with my writing—poetry, and my novel— I have a basic idea. And then it just takes off. I mean, I’m the writer and without me it wouldn’t happen. But I feel like the writing is separate from me on some level. Obviously, the writing doesn't happen in a vacuum. There's been a lot of talk about separating the art from the artist, and I don’t think that'd be possible, because I write from my own experience, and my own world view and everything.
Judy Maurer
When I write creatively, I feel like I have my hand in a river, and that river is sort of flowing. Somehow the Divine is in that river. It's hard to explain. Do you feel like that? Do you have a sense of a muse?
Anna Scott-Hinkle
I kind of feel like I come up with an idea, and then I feel like the idea or characters will start writing themselves. It’s everything that Stephen King said about how he writes a story. I mean, he’s writing the story or whatever, but the character is deciding what they do, and then will show us what happens. I like having an idea that takes off in a certain direction. And I feel like it's me, but it's also not me, if that makes sense.
Judy Maurer
Totally, totally makes sense. There's a line in your poem about “depth deception.” I just love that phrase. Let me see if I can pull it up. Here it is. “Seeking the truth in darkness/ knee deep in depth deception.” I love that.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
That's beautiful. Who wrote that?
Judy Maurer
That’s you! That’s your poem.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Oh, yeah. I was like that seems really familiar. Sometimes I go back and look at my poems and I'm like, Wow, this poem is actually really good.
Judy Maurer
I know. There are lots of things that I've written that I've, as I'm writing them, I hate them.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Me, too
Judy Maurer
I think they're the worst ever. And then my husband says, This is really good. You’ve really got to keep it. It's really fortunate that he has said that because otherwise they would never see the light of day.
So when did you first start writing? Writing poetry?
Anna Scott-Hinkle
So I was…I started writing poetry when I was 12. So it's been over half my life.
Judy Maurer
Now, you mentioned a couple of times, you've started sort of processing more... Did something, change in 2017? Was it the national mood or something in your life?
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Well, I think that on some level, it was 2017- 2018, something like that, when I got involved with the FCNL [Friends Committee on National Legislation] advocacy team... And I thought, well, one of the things I haven't done is look at war from a veteran's perspective. I happened to see a recommendation of this youtube channel that was by an anti-war vet. I started watching their channel. And I guess that that sort of like changed the way I understood the war and looked at war. And it was also at that time, I felt God was leading me to listening and studying. Because I'm like, to me, this isn't making sense.And that led me to find out things like, you know, the founding myth and whatever. And I had been a Republican and then I switched to being a Democrat in 2018. I think I've been something.
Judy Maurer
Really? You were a Republican?
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Yeah. One thing that I noticed, especially I guess, as far as Republicans go, it was making me uncomfortable that the party agreed on basic things that I am opposed to, like, for example, funding war and not helping poor people, not seeing the climate change.
And then for me, it was like as a person who is disabled and is on SSI, what I see is that no matter which party is in power my life basically doesn't matter very much. And again, I would say it's the capitalist system—a system that is based on maximum profit, and I'm not able to have a job. So it's like, yeah, it would make sense from that viewpoint that if I can't have a job, then my life doesn't matter. From that point of view on a systemic level, it makes sense. Do I think it's right? No, but it does make sense.
Judy Maurer
Oh, I see.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
I think that it was part of it. And I guess that the issues that are important to me, like, you know, like not having immigrant kids in cages, not supporting Israel in oppressing Palestinians, and, you know, my life having value.
I feel like when Biden became president, and as far as I can tell, those things still aren't being addressed in a way that it's helpful. The climate bill, I mean…you could say it’s better than nothing. I don't mean to be apocalyptic. But as far as I can tell—I'm not a scientist or anything—but as far as I can tell, if we don't fix it, in the next few years, it'll be inevitable, and this will keep happening. And eventually, from what I hear, we're all gonna die out as a species.
Judy Maurer
Yes, yeah. Sometimes I think, I just hope we don't take out too many other species with us.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
That's what I think about also—environmental justice for animals, not just people. And, again, I understand a system that values profit over everything else, not being able to address climate change from a systemic level; that makes sense.
But also, the one thing the super rich people and poor people have in common is that climate change will eventually affect all of us. People aren't gonna be able to live in space, and there isn't enough planet. So for me certain issues are fundamental, like climate change. Addressing that is fundamental to the survival of human species. It isn't being addressed in a way that will fix it.
Judy Maurer
I get that now. It's tough. Yeah, about capitalism and not being able to hold a job
Anna Scott-Hinkle
There's also like, there's a lot of things that like, as a disabled person, I can't do under this system. I feel like that has only helped me understand the system on a deeper level, I guess.
Judy Maurer
I bet.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
If I have more than a certain amount of money in my bank account, I will have my SSI [Social Security disability benefits] taken away. And there's other things. Like for example, it's not always the case, but in the US, if a couple on SSI get married, they can lose their SSI. So this is a problem because like, people might want to get married but they’re like I might lose my SSI. That's my entire income. So I've learned that marriage equality doesn't actually exist. I can't think of a situation where if somebody got married they would like lose their income. Nobody is going to fire you for getting married.
Judy Maurer
yeah. Wow, I didn't realize that. Also, the income ceilings are so low for eligibility.
Anna Scott-Hinkle Yeah.
Judy Maurer
That's really hard
Anna Scott-Hinkle
I could be wrong about this but I think that SSI is like 60% below the national poverty line. So I am lucky that I have family like my parents who will help me. I'm like, This is why a lot of people on SSI are really, really poor.
Judy Maurer
And yet you're obviously contributing to society! I mean, this is pretty obvious.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Yeah, exactly. I do know that it took me a while to realize that, because I had taken in a bunch of the ableism of the society. I had taken it in. I had acquired a lot of perceptions that, you know, my life wasn't valued and I was like a "burden on society." And I began to say, why are you thinking about them? I was like, wait a second! I started to read. And eventually, I figured out that the beliefs I had about my worth as a woman were not accurate. I was freaking out! I'm like, Wait a second, there's nothing wrong with me. But there's something wrong with society. There are things in my life that are a problem. But there's nothing wrong with me existing.
Judy Maurer
That's right. That's right. And, well, it seems like, in your poem, that it's a gift in not being neurotypical.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Exactly. I feel like it gives me a different perspective on the world. I know it gives me a deeper understanding of systemic issues that are harming people. I think having people who are seeing things differently is incredibly helpful.
Judy Maurer
Exactly. And that poem shows it.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Yeah, thank you. For one thing we are a very individualistic society. However, if you want to be yourself in a way that isn't accepted by society, you will be in trouble. If I had trouble with that especially online. I’d be saying something to people, I didn’t know. Somebody was like, telling me that I need to conform to society. And I'm like, A, that's not true. And B the fact that you said that to me, clearly shows that you have no idea who I am.
One of the things about being autistic, at least for me, generally speaking, if I don't know somebody, I don't care what they think of me.
Judy Maurer
Oh, that's good!
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Obviously the people who I know, like you for example… if you thought I was doing something wrong, or if somebody like a family member said that, I would care because I know that if somebody actually cares about me, and they think I am doing something wrong, well, maybe I am! But if it's a random person who doesn't know my mind thinks that I'm really stupid or something, well, you know, they are welcome to say that. I don't care.
Judy Maurer 44:38
Excellent. Well, somehow I haven't achieved that.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Yeah, maybe.
Judy Maurer
One of the things I worry about in Sierra-Cascades is we have these lofty aspirations, but on the ground, and in committee meetings, I have this sense that we're falling short.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Me too, honestly. Yes.
Judy Maurer
Do you have thoughts about that? Where we're falling short?
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Obviously, everybody's not going to be on the same page and have the same level of understanding but what I feel like is, in issues like social justice issues, and the statements for indigenous lives and black lives, I feel like getting things like that passed—we could never get anything like that passed in Northwest Yearly Meeting! But it feels like it's not moving fast enough, in my opinion.
But the way that people like, wordsmith everything. It can be just slightly, I guess, annoying. I understand that. But there were times when, you know, somebody will be, you know, saying things like, Well, my ancestors didn't do blah, blah, blah. And this statement sounds like [you're saying] all white people were raised as white supremacists..
I mean, I have a problem with those statements. Because well, many white people do work really hard on not being racist, but we are always going to have some times when I might—it's always possible, I think due to the system I live in, unintentionally do something that might be racist, and not even be aware of it.
So to me, it's inherently part of this system and the power structure, and I can't escape it. And to me, it's not, like "I'm bad, because I'm a white person." Many people feel like when people talk about racism, they feel like people are saying you're inherently bad because you're white. That's not it.
I mean, nobody who is reasonable thinks that somebody is inherently bad because we're white. I mean, I didn't choose my race. I didn't like say, Oh, well, I'm going to be born to white parents. Again, like I didn't choose to be born white, I didn't chose to be a woman and to be disabled, I feel like justice is, for me, inherent grieving and mourning, and oftentimes, rage and anger, about the system that is inherently oppressive,
Judy Maurer
Are there things I mean, other than the minutes and the letters, that you would like Sierra-Cascades to go faster on. Or be aware of at all?
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Hmm, I'm not totally sure. It would need to be done very like sensitively because everybody's on a different page, but I feel like something that maybe needs to be addressed more. And from my point of view is that, for me, as a Christian, I feel like Jesus, obviously was against empire. I think that's pretty obvious from the Gospels. And I don't think that Jesus would like be supporting the current system of capitalism, either, because Jesus's message was to bring to him the captives and the oppressed. And again, we live in a system that is oppressing people and locking people up in prison. We have the biggest prison population on the planet, and we don't have by any means the largest population. It might be better to…
Judy Maurer
what might be better, I didn't catch what might be?
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Maybe it's talking about how the system of capitalism and the methods of Jesus don't really work together. There's an inherent contradiction—you're trying to follow a religion that says feed the poor, help the oppressed, release the captives. But we have a system that we're a part of that is actively doing those things. Doesn't seem to make much sense.
Judy Maurer
Yeah. This is good. About ableism—can you talk a bit about what that means? Especially to you?
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Yeah, it's a great word. It would be like the viewpoint that people who are disabled are not as valuable as non-disabled people. And again, it's like this systemic problem.
I feel like oftentimes, people are unintentionally ableist. I feel like many people don't set out to be ableist. I feel like there are so many myths and misunderstandings about what being autistic is. I wasn't diagnosed until I was like, 20, I think.
We have this saying that I think is really helpful: if you know one autistic person, you know one autistic person. We are all different. We have these certain things in common that you know, is how we identify, or how we get identified as being autistic, but everybody's different. You can't like say, all autistic people are this way, because that's not true.
I feel like when it comes to my experience with ableism and being autistic, I am definitely wanting to help you understand autism and my experience with it, but it is not my job to educate anybody or to get people to treat me like I'm a person. I'm like, if people aren't willing to, I'm not gonna bother you.
Judy Maurer
That's a very good point.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
But if people are like interested in knowing about my experience, I am happy to explain certain things about myself. I would tell people that sometimes I have communication issues. The difference is like, normally I'm pretty good at understanding things, but in certain situations, like, if I'm doing something I've never done before, or if I, for whatever reason, am anxious at the time, then my ability to communicate in a way that people can understand is gonna get a lot less. So I mean, I'm always happy to explain, because there's a lot of misinformation about it. And also the whole issue of masking. Have you heard about that?
Judy Maurer
No, I haven't.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
So masking is like something that many people think autistic women generally do more than men. I was taught from society—like, my parents didn't teach me. But I was taught that the way that I am isn't okay and that I need to act differently.
So I started trying to, you know, be the way that I was expected to be, because I don't like conflict, I don't want to make other people uncomfortable. Because, again, as an autistic person, people haven't always been nice to me. Partly, it's a protective thing and partly it’s a way to not make people uncomfortable and to be the way I'm supposed to be.
So it's like, about I think last year sometime I’ve been trying to go through the process of unmasking. I guess for me, unmasking is where we try to find out who we are and to be that person, instead of what society thought we should be.
It's difficult, because while they are going through this process, there's a certain kind of wondering like, Well, who am I? And then it's also interesting because the masking is so just part of what I'm used to doing that I will do it and not even be aware of it. I'll unintentionally start doing it. It's an exhausting thing to be doing. It's like as if I were acting all the time. It's like constantly trying to be somebody I know. It's exhausting. It's like, if somebody's in a movie, but the movie is 24/7. You have to be on stage all the time.
Judy Maurer
I can imagine that'd be totally exhausting. Yes.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
It is exhausting. But also, I feel like in a different way, trying to unmask is also exhausting, because I have to try to find out who I actually am. And then also I’m trying to consciously check with myself like, am I masking right now? And if I am, why am I doing that? Am I able to stop? That's something else about being autistic.
Masking is very harmful to autistic people. And I think that masking can cause people to take their own lives and be in a really bad depression. I guess, on some level, and again, I'm not gay, so I can’t obviously, you know, speak to that experience. But what I've heard from people is that it kind of feels like the experience of a gay person, trying to pretend to be straight all the time. It's like you're trying to deny your basic identity so that you can fit into something.
Judy Maurer
So, as I understand, you're involved in sort of a process of learning who you are, so that you don't have to mask.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Yeah. It may take a really long time. And I don't know if I can fully ever unmask. I don't know.
Judy Maurer
Yes. It may be partly the human experience to mask at some point.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Yeah, I think that everybody does to a certain extent. Obviously, I only have my own experience to go on.
Judy Maurer
Exactly. Do I understand correctly, that you're saying that people with autism probably have to mask more often? A higher percentage of their lives?
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Yeah, that is my understanding. Yeah, I think that like some people if something about them doesn't fit into how are they supposed to be in the society they live in and they are not autistic they would have to mask. But I do think autistic people do mask more often and on a higher level, as far as I know.
Judy Maurer
Yeah, that makes sense to me. How do people who are neurotypical help, or hurt, in that process of unmasking?
Anna Scott-Hinkle
Well, I think that one thing you would tell people to do to help is to like, as much as possible, make sure that autistic people feel included, feel comfortable and safe in environments. Such as I don't do well if there's like a ton of noise, you know, or if there's a ton of people. I realize it can't always be avoided. And like, if there's red flashing lights and I might get a headache I don't know if that's because I'm autistic. Also, as an autistic person I need more time processing sometimes.
Judy Maurer
It makes sense.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
If a lot of information is being given to me, I'm gonna need to process and also like, I sometimes have what's known as transition problems. Like, if I have to do something, especially something that I haven't done before or is new or something that is difficult, even something that I want to do, I will have to transition. Say, if I'm talking to one of my friends, and I really want to talk to them. But I will have a transition where I'm like, "I'm doing something else and then I'm gonna talk to my friend." So then I will mentally need to transition.
Judy Maurer
That makes lots of sense. So we need to allow for that in ending Meeting for Worship and things like that.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
I really like the way we do now [at Eugene Friends] that there is more silent worship, and it can be a good time to process or transition, or get myself in a new mental space of where we did this and not gonna go through this for myself. It’s helpful.
Judy Maurer
Oh, that's really good to know.
Anna Scott-Hinkle
And I think that a lot of people need to have transitions. Like my mom says she has a transition from doing things but I think that for autistic people, it's different than like the normal transition that other people do
Judy Maurer
This is excellent. This is so good. I'm glad you're willing to talk about this. Thank you.